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Rick Burnett: Dr. Schuller, in the last part of Chapter 13 in "Possibility Living" you talk about showing gratitude to God.  You write about an outline that you learned in seminary: Guilt, Grace, and Gratitude.  Would you explain this outline to us?

Dr. Robert A. Schuller:  It is almost self-explanatory.   We are all guilty.  We cannot earn our way into heaven.  It again comes back to the whole idea of salvation by grace versus salvation by works.  We are all guilty as a result of not being able to live a perfect life; therefore, we need God's grace.  Through God's grace we are forgiven, we are completed, we are sanctified - there are lots of words that you can give to this transformation that takes place.  The paradigm shifts from sinner to saint.  We become the saints that God has called us to be.  What I hate to see is people growing up with the understanding that they are a sinner even after they've become a Christian.  Once you're a Christian, you are not a sinner anymore.  St. Paul never addressed the people in his letters "to all the sinners" in Rome, or Philippi, etc.  He addressed his letters "to all the saints" in Rome, "to all the saints" in Philippi, etc.  He calls Christians by the true title of what they are, which is "saints."  If you've accepted Jesus Christ and accepted the grace that He has given to you, you are not a sinner anymore.  You were a sinner at one time, but not anymore.  Once you've made the step to accept Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, you are no longer a sinner.  Quit calling yourself a sinner.  If a preacher is up in the pulpit and calling people sinners, just realize that he is referring to everybody who has NOT accepted Jesus Christ.  If you've accepted Christ, you have to realize that you are a saint.  So, we are all Guilty, and we are saved through Grace.  So, then what is your motivation?  In fact, that is one of the main criticisms by the Muslim faith/believers towards Christianity.  They say we have a license to sin; that we've been saved by grace and we don't have to earn our salvation, so they say we have a license to sin.  They ask, what is our motivation to do good?  The motivation for us as Christians is very different than it is for the Muslims and just about every other faith on planet earth.  Our motivation is one that comes from a healthy perspective, as opposed to a non-healthy perspective.  That healthy perspective is Gratitude.  When someone does something for you so beautiful for you, don't you naturally want to do something beautiful for him or her?  If someone gives you a nice brand new car and the next day they had car trouble, and they asked you to go to the grocery store for them, would you do that for them?  I think most people would say yes, it would be the least you could do for them.  You would do it out of gratitude because this person gave you a wonderful gift - it would be the least you could do to say thank you for the car.  That is our motivation as Christians.  We have this incredible gift that we can't even begin to repay.  The least I can do is to do the things that Christ has asked me to do.  What He asks us to do are things that are going to make us happier and better people in the first place! 

Rick Burnett:   At the end of Chapter 13, you talk about support for the abused.  How and where can those who have experienced spiritual abuse seek help and support?

Dr. Douglas DiSiena:   Well, we've already discussed the 12-step program in the previous chapters.  Going through a 12-step program is definitely one thing you can do to talk about and work through those spiritual abuse issues.  Another thing is being sure you hear positive messages - here at Rancho Capistrano we teach a positive message.  I would tell people to find a church where there is a positive message, so that you can understand Grace, and so you can understand the negative and toxic effects of working a salvation by "works" theology.  So, if people can find a positive church, and/or watch the Hour of Power on television, they will understand the positive aspects of our faith. 

Dr. Robert A. Schuller:    In all sincerity, I'd recommend that people buy our book, read it and allow the Holy Spirit of God to create healing.  If you've experienced spiritual abuse, you've experienced injury - spiritual injury.  That injury needs to heal.  Healing takes place on a paradigm level; spiritually first, so that you get on the right track and from there you continue to pray and allow the spirit of God to produce the healing that will take place physically, emotionally and spiritually.