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Rick Burnett: Chapter 13 of Possibility Living is entitled "Detoxify your Religion."  You begin that chapter by talking about spiritual abuse.  Dr. Schuller, what is spiritual abuse?

Dr. Robert A. Schuller: Spiritual abuse is something that many people have been afflicted with from the time they were children.  It is a misconception that many pastors have inflicted upon people in order to try and manipulate and control.  You have to realize that there is tremendous power in the hands of an individual who can hold the keys life and death over your head, of eternal damnation or eternal heaven.  If I can come to you and say listen if you don't do this you're going to hell, and if I can convince you that I'm right, you'll do almost anything to be able to go to heaven and avoid going to hell.  If you figure you're going to die anyway, you'll ask yourself if you want 25 years of life on earth doing whatever you want and have eternal damnation; or, if you're going to die tomorrow and have an eternity of bliss as a result - which would you rather choose?  Most people are going to choose death and eternal bliss over a few years of temporary bliss and eternal damnation.  As a result of this, this gives incredible power to people who wish to abuse this power that they have to manipulate people to do things that they want them to do.  Spiritual abuse has been widespread throughout history - to be able to manipulate and control masses of people to do things that they really don't want to do.  That is spiritual abuse.  It is when someone uses the power of eternal life or death to manipulate an individual. 

Dr. Douglas DiSiena: Would you say that would be a fear-based point of view?

Dr. Robert A. Schuller: It is traditionally fear based - but, not always.  For instance, we look at the history of war - the kamikaze pilots.  They were told to crash their planes which would result in bringing honor and fame to their family forever and that they would have eternal happiness.  The same thing happened in the Gulf War; Saddam Hussein told his people to fight for their country and any sins of their past would be erased, Allah would bless them and they would have eternal praise in heaven.  So, these warlords used these ideas to motivate their soldiers to sacrifice their lives and to become suicidal.  To this day, there are Muslim extremists who abuse their followers in this fashion.  These things continue to happen to this day.  That is spiritual abuse at the extreme.  The extreme is easy to see. 

There is also spiritual abuse that is not so extreme, which is used on a regular basis. That is where pastors will motivate their parishioners to go out and make sure they bring enough people to church, or else their going to hell.  They will point their fingers at the congregations and tell them their sinners and they only way you're not going to be a sinner is if you do what I tell you to do.  So it isn't that extreme, because there is scriptural support as to why we should bring people to church; however, it is still abusive to use that form of motivation.  People have to be encouraged to do things because they want to do them and because they will be happier, healthier people because of it; not because they are going to experience some spiritual reward in the future.

Rick Burnett:  I could see where that would also happen when someone seems to think that another individual is closer to God than they are.  Some people will say "I talked to God today, and He told me to tell you such and such.)

Dr. Robert A. Schuller:  I consider that a form of spiritual manipulation. 

Dr. Douglas DiSiena: I tell people that I'll wait until I hear from God directly to concur or not concur with whatever they are trying to tell me.

Rick Burnett: I would think that one of the things we should be careful of, or look for, is spiritual leaders who teach us to learn spiritual things the same way they did.

Dr. Robert A. Schuller:  I think there is a common mistake among people that there is only one way, because the Bible talks about "one way." So, some people will say if you're not doing it "my" way, you're doing it the "wrong" way, and you better change, you "sinner."

Dr. Douglas DiSiena:  It's interesting as I was just looking over the totality of our book, the first chapter gives us information on how to feed ourselves and get this connection with Christ.  Now, in the last chapter, we're talking about once we have that connection it can be abused by spiritual leaders.  So, as we finish up the book, we've made the connection and now we're teaching people how to keep it clean. 

Rick Burnett: You say that religion becomes toxic when it replaces grace with works.  What do you mean by this?

Dr. Robert A. Schuller: That is very true.  You have to remember that we are saved by grace.  That means it is a gift from God.  It means that God gave us His son, that whoever believes upon Him will not perish, but will have everlasting life.  So, it is a paradigm shift in viewing who Christ is, recognize Him as the messiah, and then declaring Him as the Lord of our life.  That's the whole of it!  What people fail to realize and have difficult time grasping is that you don't earn your way into heaven.  If you don't understand what I just said previously about who Christ is and what His grace is for our lives, there is nothing else you can do to earn your way into heaven.  You can't be a kamikaze pilot and sacrifice your life and go to heaven.  You cannot earn your way into heaven by going all the good deeds in the world.  It comes down to the fact that Christ died for us and whoever believes in Him, will not perish, but will have everlasting life.  That is the only way that we avoid judgement from God.  Any other way, we face judgement and it will be in God's hands and God's decision.  Personally, I don't want to face that judgement; therefore, I want to accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior and not try to earn my way into heaven.  No matter how many good deeds or good works you do, there would never be enough, there would always be more things you could have done.  As a result, you will fail because you could have done more.  It's like the movie, Schlindler's List.  Let me remind you it's the movie about the holocaust survivors and Schindler was the man who helped save thousands.(I think it was over a thousand).  He was just a businessman and when he started he was in it solely for the economic value and he did quite well off of the Jewish labor.  But then, when he saw things turn and he saw the Jewish people being put in concentration camps and being executed, his heart completely changed.  He used all of the wealth he accumulated from their labor to actually buy them from the Nazis.  He spent everything he had buying the Jewish people from the Nazis, so they could work for him.  He spent every penny he had doing this until the very end. At the very end when he was leaving he broke down and cried and said, "I could have done more."  He took his ring off his finger and said "I could sold this ring and saved two more."  And he just wept and wept.  He was basically penniless and yet he could have done more.  He was right, he could have done more.  That's true of all of us.  No matter how much we give, no matter how much we do, you can always do more.  So, as a result, we cannot earn our way into heaven; it has to be a gift of grace.  That's a very difficult thing for people to realize.  Even Jesus had to turn away from the masses and go and rest and could have done more. 

Dr. Douglas DiSiena: Once we truly understand that we can replace our works with grace, that removes us from being manipulated and associated with toxic religion. 

Dr. Robert A. Schuller: Exactly - you become free from that which would control and manipulate you.

Rick Burnett:  It is difficult for many people - anyone who is stuck in something like that and doesn't realize they are being manipulated - how can they come to grips with that?  Identify it and get out of it?

Dr. Robert A. Schuller:   Exactly!  They have do identify it first of all.they have to come to the realization of who they are as an individual and a person.  So, in many ways, it almost starts as a sense of self-esteem, self-worth, and self-dignity.  That's why - again this is at the end of the book, because people who have gone through the steps to help them love themselves and realize that God can love them enough to forgive them and give them this gift.  If you don't have enough self-esteem to believe that, then you can't believe that God would really do it.  If God can't do it, then you have to do it yourself, and your stuck in this tension between grace and works!