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Rick Burnett: In Chapter 9 of "Possibility Living", you write about Toxic Relationships.  What exactly is a toxic relationship? 

Dr. Robert A. Schuller:   In order to define a toxic relationship, you also have to look at a non-toxic relationship.  A non-toxic relationship is the opposite of a toxic relationship.  So we have healthy and unhealthy relationships.  That's basically what we're talking about regarding a toxic relationship, it's an unhealthy relationship.  So, what are healthy relationships and then everything that isn't healthy is unhealthy.  A healthy relationship is something that makes you a better person.  For example, there was a movie a while back starring Jack Nicholson where he has a compulsive disorder.  The movie opens with him washing his hands with a bar of soap and then throwing the bar of soap away.  He walks down the street and he walks sideways and jumping all over to avoid touching anybody or stepping on any cracks in the street.  He finally arrives at a restaurant where he has all of his meals and he kicks people out of a booth - he's just nasty!  A waitress comes along and she puts up with him and they build a relationship.  There comes a point in the movie where she can't stand him anymore because he's mean and he never says anything nice about anyone. All of a sudden he says: "OK, I'll say something nice to you."  He looks at her and says: "You make me a better person."  Her mouth falls open and she says: "I think that's the nicest thing that anyone has ever said about me."   So, a positive relationship is one where that person makes you a better person.  There are relationships that are just the opposite.  If a relationship is making you a worse person, that is an unhealthy relationship. You need to develop, maintain and equip yourself with relationships that make you a better person.  You need to distance yourself from relationships that do not make you a better person.  You will grow spiritually, emotionally, and in all areas of life if you can surround yourself with people who will make you a better person.  With that in mind you can take a look at the relationships you have and start realizing and calculating and deciding which relationships you wish to cultivate and mature and which relationships you want to start moving away from.

Rick Burnett: I would think that each relationship has to be honest.  A good relationship is an honest relationship.  Would you agree?

Dr. Robert A. Schuller:   Yes, but you have to define the word honest.  Because many people think they are being honest because they are not telling a lie.  When, actually, they don't know what the truth is.  The truth is they don't know what the truth is!  For instance, an alcoholic isn't an alcoholic until he or she can say: "I am an alcoholic,"  even though everyone around him/her knows they are an alcoholic.   In their mind because they continue to get to work each morning and are what we call a "functioning alcoholic"; therefore, they will say they are not an alcoholic.  However, if you start looking at what it's doing to their family, their health and their relationships you'll realize there is no question of alcoholism - but, they don't see it.  So, the truth is, they don't know what the truth is - they don't realize they actually have a drinking problem and need help.

Rick Burnett:   Dr. DiSiena, what is your definition of a toxic relationship?

Dr. Douglas DiSiena: In terms of toxic relationships, I look at what is it about me that attracts a toxic relationship?   One of the issues in this chapter of the books is self-reflection.  The issue is why are we attracted to that type of a dysfunction relationship?  In many ways, we need to look within ourselves.  For example, if you're married to an alcoholic, there are issues you need to look at within yourself, as to why you would choose to be in a relationship with such a person.  So, we need to look at ourselves - what is it about us that attracts such a person.  I know as a person grows spiritually and emotionally, they tend to grow their relationships and abandon those toxic relationships and cultivate more positive, healthy relationships. 

Rick Burnett:  Is it important to perhaps list a group of people you can rely on to be nurturing to you in times of trouble, or people who give you strength in difficult times. 

Dr. Robert A. Schuller:  I think that's something we always need to do.  I believe God did not create human beings to be alone.  He created us to be with people.  If you go back and look at creation with everything He created at the end of the day He said: "it is good," until He comes to man, then He says, "it is not good."  Of all the things He created he was not pleased with man.  God said it is not good that man should live alone.  So, he made woman - and then He saw man and woman together and He said, "it is very good."  He used the superlative, indicating that it was better than anything else He had made.  That is because the human species was not created to live in isolation.  We were meant to live as a community.  So, God created us as such and wants us to live accordingly.

Rick Burnett:    Some relationships are almost impossible to avoid.  How do we handle the toxic people we must face and deal with, such as people at our jobs, schools, parents, etc?

Dr. Robert A. Schuller:   I particularly think of the children of alcoholics - they don't have an option.  They have to deal with that situation.  However, I think there is a limit as to how much we have to accept.  I think everybody realizes there is a line we can draw in the sand and say enough is enough.  For instance, when a man beats his wife, I say enough is enough - get out of that house, sever that relationship, absolutely do not stay in that relationship if you're being abused by your husband.  Women, who allow that to happen, need to look at themselves and ask why do they allow that to happen?  Why do they have such low self-esteem that they continue to go back into those kinds of relationships?  Some women continue to return to that kind of a situation and it's not uncommon for a woman to be killed!  So, we have to build enough self-esteem to realize that God loves us and cares for us enough that we can sever ourselves from relationships that are so toxic that they will kill us.  So, it really starts on the inside - like Dr. DiSiena said - with building self-esteem. 

Rick Burnett:  So, you say that we have to build self-esteem and sever those relationships that are toxic - but, what about those people, those bosses, those teachers, etc., that we have to face every day?

Dr. Robert A. Schuller:  Are you saying you don't have enough self-esteem to believe that you can get another job? 

Rick Burnett:  That's what you suggest for an employer/employee relationship?

Dr. Robert A. Schuller:  Yes, for an employer/employee relationship that is what I would suggest.  In a teacher/classroom situation - that is a short period of time, and you "bite your tongue" and get through it and that's the end of that relationship.  There is a definite ending to that relationship.  So, yes there are times when you have to deal with toxic relationships for a period of time.  However, most of the relationships we are talking about are ones that have no prescribed limit or end.  I think we have a lot more options available than we realize.

Dr. Douglas DiSiena:   I believe that the really dysfunctional, toxic relationships are those that are closest to us - that is when we get hurt.  A relationship with a teacher is a very small period of time in your life - there is no inherent relationship necessarily with that person - you're not really letting that person penetrate into your soul.  So, most of the time we have choices - and we need to exercise those choices as best we can.

Rick Burnett: What about family members - you talked briefly about living with an alcoholic  - what about spouses, brothers, and sisters?

Dr. Robert A. Schuller:  In the book, I believe I open this chapter by talking about a friend of mine who severed her relationship with her parents because it was so toxic.  What I don't share in the book, because it happened after the book was published, is the fact that after a three-year separation she was able to be reunited with her family.  Their relationship is now on a completely different level.  It is now a healthy relationship because they respect her boundaries and they respect her needs.  As a result of that they are able to live harmoniously and positively.  So, there are times, even in our families, when we need separation.  This is true of marriages also.  There is the statement:  "absence makes the heart grow fonder."  Of course, there is the antithesis of that "absence makes the heart grow yonder."  I think if we're healthy people and healthy adults and God has intended us to stay together and you're in an unhealthy relationship with your spouse or your parents, you have the option and the choice to either allow the spirit of God to heal and bring you back together, or to allow a separation and realize that you are damaging each other and it is not a good relationship. 

Rick Burnett:   So, must of us tend to drift away from those toxic relationships?

Dr. Robert A. Schuller:  No, that's not the case at all.  I don't agree with that!

Dr. Douglas DiSiena:  I don't agree either!  As we mentioned earlier, for whatever reasons within ourselves, we want to capture and are attracted to that type of dysfunctional relationship.  However, when we become healthy, that's when we tend to move away from those types of relationships. 

Rick Burnett:   So, it's the healthier person who will move away from toxic relationships.

Dr. Robert A. Schuller:  The mistake that unhealthy people make is they will move out of one unhealthy relationship into another unhealthy relationship.  That is the person who realizes an unhealthy relationship, but refuses to look at the fact that they have a participation in that unhealthiness.  So, they move from one unhealthy relationship to another to another, etc. 

Rick Burnett:   What does a person do to identify why they are drawn to unhealthy people?  What do they do to make the change?

Dr. Robert A. Schuller:   First of all it begins spiritually.  That's why our whole book, "Possibility Living" begins on a spiritual level, where you come to terms with your fallibility, that you are not perfect and that you have a participation in the fact that your relationships are not good or healthy.  From there I would strongly encourage people to seek professional counseling, especially if they are going through a divorce, or emotional issues.  If the counselor is doing his/her job, within a short time (a few months), you should be able to have some "aha" moments.  The counselor should be able to open your eyes to see the truth instead of you being in denial about your own personal growth.  Then, you'll be in a position to reach out and have a healthy relationship, instead of jumping from one frying pan to another!

Rick Burnett:   In this Chapter entitled "Detoxify Your Relationships", you talk about the steps we should take to choose a healthy relationship - let's talk about these steps.   You begin by talking about self-reflection.

Dr. Douglas DiSiena:  The first key or step is: "what is it about me?"   Once you figure out that, then you can move on to the next step.  For instance, I have several patients who come in and they are in toxic relationship.  One of my patients was in what could have been a potentially serious problem because of certain violent behavior.  So, she got out of that relationship.  Six months later, she is telling be about another guy who has these certain violent tendencies.  I asked her what it was that attracted her to the first person - and, could it have been the same thing that attracted her to the second person.  So, we need to go into periods of self-reflection.  Sometimes, that means going to a counselor.  That's what I love about what we do here at our Possibility Living Seminars.  It gives you a whole week to take the time to reflect.  Sometimes people need to attend a retreat, similar to what we have here to take the time to do some deep, heavy reflections.  Like Robert says, many times the first step is the spiritual approach - to figure out your relationship with God and know that God does love you - that tends to fill us up with a certain amount of esteem and then you can move on to other issues and self-discovery.

Dr. Robert A. Schuller:   I'll just reiterate, that if you're in a bad relationship, you don't want to jump from one bad relationship to another.  What you need to do is look at yourself and say what role do you have in the relationship and get some personal counseling.

Rick Burnett:   It's a tough thing to do isn't it to recognize our own problems and when we need help.

Dr. Robert A. Schuller:  Again, I really believe in professional help.  I would strongly encourage spending the money and get professional counseling.  It will come back hundred-fold; for example, what would you pay to keep from getting into a bad marriage relationship.  I know I would give everything I have, because if you get into a bad relationship, you're going to lose everything anyway.  So, I believe you can't pay enough to get the right counseling that is going to help you break through your problems.  You have to realize usually the reason people are in these types of situations is because of our parents.  The bible tells us that the sins of the parents will be passed to their children and their children and their children, etc.  The same is true with blessings - God's blessings will be passed from the parents to their children and their children and their children's children.  God isn't cursing us; He is just stating a reality of fact that this is what happens in society.  You are trained to see and act and do things because of how you were raised in your family.  Therefore, having been raised in a certain culture, you see things a certain way - you continue to go through life and pass that on to your children, and they pass it on to their children, and it goes on and on and on.  You can take alcoholism as an example.  Most alcoholics are children of alcoholics and then their children become alcoholics and it is passed from one generation to the next until finally somebody comes along and says "enough," I'm not going to do this anymore and they break the chain.  Suddenly, they receive the blessing and guess what - their children receive the blessing, and their children receive the blessing and on and on.  So, the question you have to ask yourself is are you going to stop the chain of denial and heartbreak and give your children something that will make a difference in their lives - or, will you simply pass the garbage you inherited from your parents to your children.

Dr. Douglas DiSiena:   I would also suggest when seeking counseling, make sure it is from a Christian-based, godly, professional.  Like Robert was just saying, it is all rooted in scriptures.  The Bible is a treasury of information that we need to extract.  When you're in a difficult situation it is hard to do that on your own, but a professional can give you that godly wisdom. 

Rick Burnett:   Let's talk a little about conflict resolution.

Dr. Robert A. Schuller:   First of all you have to define conflicts.  I believe conflict, more times than not, is a result of unmet expectations.  You have certain expectation of what I'm supposed to be doing, and someone else has a different expectation.  The example I use is the couple that gets married and they just return from their honeymoon.  His wife was raised in a family where her father would get up every morning and make breakfast for the family.  Her mother would come to the kitchen and have this piping hot cup of coffee and breakfast would be all prepared for her. Well, the husband was raised completely opposite of that scenario.  His mother would get up every morning and make coffee and breakfast.  His father would come to the kitchen and have a piping hot cup of coffee and breakfast would be all prepared for him.  So, they are both waiting in bed to see who is going to get up and get breakfast.  Then they start to argue and have a conflict about who is going to make breakfast.  They both had certain expectations that were not met, simply because of the way they were raised.  This is something that will be resolved because they have an opportunity to discuss how they were each raised and they have to resolve those expectations. 

Dr. Douglas DiSiena: I don't know if you can completely remove conflicts from happening in relationships; but, what you can do in healthy relationships is have the conflict help clarify issues.  So, when there is a conflict, and healthy people come together and communicate, there becomes clarification and lesser chances of future conflict.   I know that one of the things I do in my chiropractic practice is in the first meeting with a patient, I ask them what are their expectations.  Sometimes a patient may have an expectation that we may not be able to meet.  The same thing with employees.  I was recently interviewing a candidate for my office staff and I asked them the same question - what is your expectation for your job at this office?  Once we know a person's expectation and we know whether we can meet those expectations, the possibilities of conflicts are removed.

Rick Burnett:   You also talk about healthy boundaries.  What are healthy boundaries and how do we maintain them?

Dr. Robert A. Schuller:     Boundaries is where you define your "protection area" in effect.  Boundaries are something that we need to understand and realize at what point and what level we are going to feel comfortable.  I know many people have a very difficult time setting boundaries.  Young people, if they haven't been educated and taught to say "no" will not have any boundaries as far as their sexual relationships are concerned, or their boundaries as far as saying "no" to drugs or any other number of things that could be extremely harmful. 

One of the sets of boundaries that we need to teach our children and adhere to ourselves are the boundaries that God gave to us in the scriptures - The ten commandments.  Those boundaries are actually something that create more freedom and at the same time more safety.  The best example I like to use is the school fence.  Historically, there were tests done in schoolyards of where there were no fences.  When they put a fence out beyond that parameter, they discovered that the children would actually run beyond that parameter and beyond all the way to the fence.  They would enjoy a larger area than if the fence were not there.  So, what happened was they actually had more freedom and more enjoyment because the fence was there.   They didn't have the fear of going to far, etc.  That's what happens in our lives.  If we have solid boundaries, we know how far we can go, we reach that boundary and acknowledge that we won't go any further than our boundary line.  Another illustration I like is about a time when I was in Israel.  I went to a brand new hotel, we were the first guests to be in this hotel.  In fact, there were some areas that were still not finished. 

One of the things they had not done was to put the railings on the balconies.  So, what they did was put a doweling in the sliding glass door so you couldn't open the door.  So, here I was on the fourteenth floor overlooking the Mediterranean Sea.  I pulled the doweling out from the sliding door and stepped out on to this cement slab with no railing.  Being on the fourteenth floor, I wouldn't go very far out the door - it was terrifying without the railing.  The next night we were staying at a different hotel in Tiberias. We were in a very nice hotel room with a balcony.  The same situation, only there were railings on the balconies.  I opened the doors, left the doors open, went outside and leaned against the railing and wasn't afraid of anything at all.  What was the difference?  One balcony had a boundary and the other one didn't.  So by having healthy boundaries we actually create more freedom and more security and much more enjoyment in life.  The question is where are the boundaries and where are they healthy?  That's where the bible and God's commandments come into place to help us know where the boundaries are so we can enjoy life to the max with crashing and burning.

Rick Burnett:   So, it's boundaries to keep us in check, and to protect us from harmful relationships and harmful people.  Correct?

Dr. Robert A. Schuller:  Yes, all of the above.

Dr. Douglas DiSiena:   I would just like to add in order to get to that point we need to follow the steps as we talked about; i.e., Self-reflection, Conflict resolution.  Those will help us maintain our boundaries.  Like we say in the book, you can have your boundary made in sand or in cement.  The healthier you are the firmer your boundary will become and the safer you will feel.